Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira [mailto:ira@extrasensory.com]
Sent: July 12, 2006 1:49 AM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
At 11:21 AM 7/11/2006, you wrote:
>Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
novice users guide:
>http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a book
to hold when starting out is a good thing.
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
I saw your generosity in assisting this gentleman, Ganesan, on his
asterisk venture. Please do make a note, as some of you did; this being
a forum for documentation related questions, was used to provide
technical assistance. He should have been asked w/o any exceptions to
get help some place else. Would you treat another enquirer differently
if he/she were to ask help on questions similar to his? A polite note to
Mr. Ganesan referencing the doc URL was enough.
Mr. Ganesan's political note referencing to "Geeks" was designed to play
on our minds, which it did to some extent and some of you responded with
technical assistance using the documentation "distro". Please note that
there were a fewer grammatical mistakes than those emails in which he
wanted spoon feeding. My point being, more time and effort was given to
that email than those asking help.
Quote:
From his basic questions, it was evident that not much research was done
to fetch information from any of the materials that are available to us.
This is not the place to spoon feed. Thank you
Mian
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Ira
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1:49 AM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
At 11:21 AM 7/11/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step novice users
guide:
I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a book to hold
when starting out is a good thing.
Ira
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
At 07:47 AM 7/12/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
> >Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
> novice users guide:
> >http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
>
> I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a book
> to hold when starting out is a good thing.
So how would you improve it?
I can only speak for me, but I would have liked more how to and less
history. For me the biggest learning curve was creating a dial plan
and while it's documented there, it just seems to gloss over it. I
would think that a perfect intro to Asterisk would spend 1/3 to 1/2
of the book discussing extensions.conf. I can't write, or I'd
consider doing a book on creating the perfect dial plan. I read it
which got me here, but once I'd read it mostly I found it didn't have
the depth of coverage I needed to go where I wanted to go and so I
started using the wiki which is better but disorganized.
I didn't say it's not worthwhile, just that I don't think it's
perfect. I own a paper copy and occasionally I pull it out to read a
chapter about something I've not implemented yet and it's useful for
letting me know what I'm about to get into and how I might use it,
but I don't find it much help past that.
Then again, I don't know the goals of the authors. If it was to get
my interest up so I'd jump in, it worked, if it was to be a manual
and reference, it worked less.
Ira
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira [mailto:ira@extrasensory.com]
Sent: July 12, 2006 12:33 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: RE: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
At 07:47 AM 7/12/2006, you wrote:
> > >Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
> > novice users guide:
> > >http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
> >
> > I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a
book to hold
> > when starting out is a good thing.
>
>So how would you improve it?
I can only speak for me, but I would have liked more how to
and less history. For me the biggest learning curve was
creating a dial plan and while it's documented there, it just
seems to gloss over it. I would think that a perfect intro
to Asterisk would spend 1/3 to 1/2 of the book discussing
extensions.conf. I can't write, or I'd consider doing a book
on creating the perfect dial plan.
Your writing seems good enough to me.
Quote:
I read it which got me
here, but once I'd read it mostly I found it didn't have the
depth of coverage I needed to go where I wanted to go and so
I started using the wiki which is better but disorganized.
Agreed. Depth was not our intent.
Quote:
I didn't say it's not worthwhile, just that I don't think
it's perfect. I own a paper copy and occasionally I pull it
out to read a chapter about something I've not implemented
yet and it's useful for letting me know what I'm about to get
into and how I might use it, but I don't find it much help past that.
It was never intended to be more than an introduction.
Quote:
Then again, I don't know the goals of the authors. If it was
to get my interest up so I'd jump in, it worked, if it was to
be a manual and reference, it worked less.
It was the former not the latter.
We discussed writing an authoritative bible of all things Asterisk, and
realized that that would be a mighty tome indeed. Also, what we found was
most needed was an introduction. Enough to get started. From that base (as
you have discovered) there was enough information in the community to go to
the next step.
We are working on more with O'Reilly, and there is other stuff in the works
as well. One of the challenges of writing for Asterisk is that it changes so
fast it is hard to keep up with it. It was tough enough writing our book to
handle Asterisk 1.2, since many of the features of 1.2 did not exist when we
started writing.
Anyhow, thanks for your feedback. That was helpful.
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On Wednesday 12 July 2006 11:53, Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
Quote:
On July 12, 2006, Ira wrote:
> At 07:47 AM 7/12/2006, you wrote:
> > > >Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
> > > > novice users guide:
> > > >http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
> > >
> > > I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a
> > > book to hold when starting out is a good thing.
> >
> >So how would you improve it?
We discussed writing an authoritative bible of all things Asterisk,
and realized that that would be a mighty tome indeed. Also, what we
found was most needed was an introduction. Enough to get started.
From that base (as you have discovered) there was enough information
in the community to go to the next step.
I think the biggest criticism that I can level is that it was very clear
from the writing that chapters were written at different times in the
development process, so while one chapter was a good description
about how things worked in 1.0, a different chapter would have new
and interesting things in 1.2. The book reads as if you finished each
chapter as a work unto itself, and when each was done, you never went
back to revise it. Hence, the book has a feel of a collection of
articles about Asterisk, rather than a unified work.
Quote:
We are working on more with O'Reilly, and there is other stuff in the
works as well. One of the challenges of writing for Asterisk is that
it changes so fast it is hard to keep up with it. It was tough enough
writing our book to handle Asterisk 1.2, since many of the features
of 1.2 did not exist when we started writing.
I appreciate the difficulty of writing such a book; however, I think it
lacked a final review by an editor with an eye for unifying the
material. That's the most substantive criticism that I have of the
book. However, whatever its flaws, it is still superior to have a book
that I can feel comfortable pointing others towards than not having one.
--
Tilghman
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Ira wrote:
Quote:
.....I needed to go where I wanted to go and so I
started using the wiki which is better but disorganized.
In regard to your aforesaid comment, if you like, please let me throw my
hat as a transfer knowledge medium and I can compile what you have
researched so far, to give folks a better understanding of a dial plan.
I guess the attempt of this effort would be to do some organization that
u saw was not there. Your previous feed back is very well taken.
Asterisk is very much a happy body of scattered information. To put our
money where our mouth is; lets help.
Quote:
....I can't write, or I'd consider doing a book on creating the
perfect dial plan.
Please do not under estimate yourself. Would you accept my assistance to
help you write it? I will do most of the writing, if not all. We can try
to take our readers on a journey of words into the utopia of a dial
plan. Your perfect dial plan, which I support, is needed.
Please let me hear your comments!!!!! If you are interested, we can go
private on this.
Mian
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Ira
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 12:33 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: RE: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
At 07:47 AM 7/12/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
> >Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
> novice users guide:
> >http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
>
> I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having a book
> to hold when starting out is a good thing.
So how would you improve it?
I can only speak for me, but I would have liked more how to and less
history. For me the biggest learning curve was creating a dial plan
and while it's documented there, it just seems to gloss over it. I
would think that a perfect intro to Asterisk would spend 1/3 to 1/2
of the book discussing extensions.conf. I can't write, or I'd
consider doing a book on creating the perfect dial plan. I read it
which got me here, but once I'd read it mostly I found it didn't have
the depth of coverage I needed to go where I wanted to go and so I
started using the wiki which is better but disorganized.
I didn't say it's not worthwhile, just that I don't think it's
perfect. I own a paper copy and occasionally I pull it out to read a
chapter about something I've not implemented yet and it's useful for
letting me know what I'm about to get into and how I might use it,
but I don't find it much help past that.
Then again, I don't know the goals of the authors. If it was to get
my interest up so I'd jump in, it worked, if it was to be a manual
and reference, it worked less.
Ira
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Tilghman Lesher [mailto:tilghman@mail.jeffandtilghman.com]
Sent: July 12, 2006 1:33 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On Wednesday 12 July 2006 11:53, Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
> On July 12, 2006, Ira wrote:
> > At 07:47 AM 7/12/2006, you wrote:
> > > > >Asterisk The Future Of Telephony is perfect step by step
> > > > >novice users guide:
> > > >
>http://www.asteriskdocs.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=11
> > > >
> > > > I'd tend to suggest it's far from perfect, but having
a book to
> > > > hold when starting out is a good thing.
> > >
> > >So how would you improve it?
>
> We discussed writing an authoritative bible of all things Asterisk,
> and realized that that would be a mighty tome indeed. Also, what we
> found was most needed was an introduction. Enough to get started.
> From that base (as you have discovered) there was enough
information
> in the community to go to the next step.
I think the biggest criticism that I can level is that it was
very clear from the writing that chapters were written at
different times in the development process, so while one
chapter was a good description about how things worked in
1.0, a different chapter would have new and interesting
things in 1.2. The book reads as if you finished each
chapter as a work unto itself, and when each was done, you
never went back to revise it. Hence, the book has a feel of
a collection of articles about Asterisk, rather than a unified work.
An interesting observation. Another factor was that the chapters were
written by different authors, and yes, at different times.
Quote:
> We are working on more with O'Reilly, and there is other
stuff in the
> works as well. One of the challenges of writing for
Asterisk is that
> it changes so fast it is hard to keep up with it. It was
tough enough
> writing our book to handle Asterisk 1.2, since many of the
features of
> 1.2 did not exist when we started writing.
I appreciate the difficulty of writing such a book; however,
I think it lacked a final review by an editor with an eye for
unifying the material. That's the most substantive criticism
that I have of the book. However, whatever its flaws, it is
still superior to have a book that I can feel comfortable
pointing others towards than not having one.
We noted many of the same things ourselves. There will be a second edition,
however that is still a ways off, as we are deep into the cookbook at this
time.
Thanks for the feedback.
Jim
--
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tilghman Lesher [mailto:tilghman@mail.jeffandtilghman.com]
>
>I think the biggest criticism that I can level is that it was
>very clear from the writing that chapters were written at
>different times in the development process, so while one
>chapter was a good description about how things worked in
>1.0, a different chapter would have new and interesting
>things in 1.2. The book reads as if you finished each
>chapter as a work unto itself, and when each was done, you
>never went back to revise it. Hence, the book has a feel of
>a collection of articles about Asterisk, rather than a unified work.
An interesting observation. Another factor was that the chapters were
written by different authors, and yes, at different times.
The problem is that Asterisk is such a rapidly moving target. Let's
face it, just keeping web-based info up-to-date is tough. Throw in the
delay that printing a publication such as TFoT in paper book format
introduces, and you're fighting a lost cause.
For what it's worth, I think Jim, Leif and Jared did a fantastic job
with the book under the circumstances.
Regards,
Austin.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Denyer [mailto:adenyer@ekn.com]
Sent: July 12, 2006 1:58 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tilghman Lesher [mailto:tilghman@mail.jeffandtilghman.com]
>>
>>I think the biggest criticism that I can level is that it was very
>>clear from the writing that chapters were written at
different times
>>in the development process, so while one chapter was a good
>>description about how things worked in 1.0, a different
chapter would
>>have new and interesting things in 1.2. The book reads as if you
>>finished each chapter as a work unto itself, and when each
was done,
>>you never went back to revise it. Hence, the book has a feel of a
>>collection of articles about Asterisk, rather than a unified work.
>
> An interesting observation. Another factor was that the
chapters were
> written by different authors, and yes, at different times.
The problem is that Asterisk is such a rapidly moving target.
Let's face it, just keeping web-based info up-to-date is
tough. Throw in the delay that printing a publication such
as TFoT in paper book format introduces, and you're fighting
a lost cause.
For what it's worth, I think Jim, Leif and Jared did a
fantastic job with the book under the circumstances.
I appreciate the complement. I can tell you that we would have liked to have
spent a few more years on it (that's what Brian Capouch seems to be doing
with his book), but our editor was having none of it!
For sure the main goal was to speak to the folks who knew nothing about
Asterisk. We knew we would probably disappoint those folks who already had a
system running and were looking for more, but our goal was to get the total
newbie over that first hump, and by all accounts we mostly succeeded at
that.
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback.
Jim
Jim and the other authors of "Asterisk The Future Of Telephony", thx for
a tremendous work and the book has been a guiding star for me.
/Mats
--
"Those that sacrifice essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin (1759)
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Quote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Mats Karlsson [mailto:mats.o.karlsson@gmail.com]
Sent: July 12, 2006 3:24 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
Jim Van Meggelen wrote:
> Thanks for the feedback.
> Jim
>
Jim and the other authors of "Asterisk The Future Of
Telephony", thx for a tremendous work and the book has been a
guiding star for me.
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On 7/11/06, asterisk <asterisk@stn.pl> wrote:
Quote:
OK. There is very hot discussion here. It means (I hope) subject is very hot.
I don't agree with Jim:
And I don't agree with you :) My reasoning below...
Quote:
> This is primarily because most people only talk about what needs to
> be done; very few actually do anything.
Agreed.
Quote:
Peter Beckman wrote:
> > > What I am seeing is that you guys are (mostly) still alive! :) This is
> > > about the quietest list in the civilized world.
> >
> > Wow, this is the first thread on this list in a long time.
> >
we are quiet because we are very busy and hard working (around VoIP, Asterisk,
Internet, e.t.c), and maybe talking not enough.
But I think this discussion means we think documentation is VERY important
part of Asterisk.
There is some old rules about this:
1. Make documentation in parallel with coding.
2. Make docs even before coding.
This is because you have to know where are you going and documentation is your
roadmap.
Unfortunately Asterisk is still relatively young (it's just a wee
baby!!!) -- it's delving into an industry that had yet been touched by
open source, and is a pretty complex world unto itself (we're talking
over 100 years of innovation here people!).
Making documentation in parallel with coding is a great and grand idea
-- some day it may even happen. However -- those who program are not
documenteurs -- they are programmers. Digium has, at last count,
approximately 4-5 full time programmers -- the rest are all
volunteers! And it seems highly unlikely that Digium is going to ask
those _volunteer_ programmers to be required to write documentation in
addition to the programming efforts they are generously contributing
to all of us. Yes -- if someone writes a new function or application,
they have to write some documentation to show how it works, but they
certainly are not required to write a 30 page chapter on how it works.
Writing documentation before coding is an even grander idea -- but my
statements above still stand. And also, Asterisk is an open source
project and not a commercial entity (yes, there is commercialism
behind it, but Digium is not as big as Cisco), so it plays by
different rules, has different ambitions, and different goals.
The roadmap of Asterisk is constantly changing. That's because it is
driven by those volunteers who tirelessly provide knowledge and skills
into a peice of software that we all use, and the areas the get the
most attention are going to be those that they themselves require the
most for their customers.
So while your thoughts are logical and sound, they simply don't meet
the objectives of reality.
Leif Madsen.
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On July 12, 2006 Leif Madsen wrote:
Quote:
>So while your thoughts are logical and sound, they simply don't meet
the > >objectives of reality.
Here is the objective of reality:
There is not a single startup document that I was aware of when I was
setting up asterisk that will help you set up asterisk on the fly. YES
ON THE FLY. I had this pain and those before me and after me have said
it too. Due to my schedule, mine is not all the way functioning). Then
came your book, and I salute you for it, but not a hands on capsule as I
would like to see it....(perhaps not your objective); like we have in
training labs. I know we all are busy and talk is cheap, hence my
comments as well. The reality is, it is not there. We need to set up
small task committees and have them do small projects such as I have
pointed out to in my example below.
Recently, I have not checked all what we have as documentation, but I
would like to see an effort (and I am willing to help), that will get
you this product functioning at a minimal; all in one doc. Mastering it
will come later.
For example:
Provide basics for installing LINUX. (Yes the basics!!!!!)
Then install asterisk.
And then have two soft phones communicate.
Basic trouble shoot
Some uses of Digium products and how to set those up. Have Digium make
money too and advertise their product in it, if rules of the game would
allow.
The aforementioned example (scope of work) can be refined, but it needs
to get done from what I have seen from the basic questions on various
forums. So I wrote to Ira if he would help.
Leif further wrote:
Quote:
> This is primarily because most people only talk about what needs
to
Quote:
> be done; very few actually do anything
True, but if what I have asked is needed, a bit guidance may be needed
to set our documentation module in line with to create a task based
documentation, which are small steps and would not require us to wait
long as is the case with writing a whole new book.
Regards,
Mian
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-doc-bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Leif Madsen
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 4:55 PM
To: Discussions regarding The Asterisk Documentation Project
Subject: Re: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On 7/11/06, asterisk <asterisk@stn.pl> wrote:
Quote:
OK. There is very hot discussion here. It means (I hope) subject is
very hot.
Quote:
I don't agree with Jim:
And I don't agree with you :) My reasoning below...
Quote:
> This is primarily because most people only talk about what needs
to
Quote:
> be done; very few actually do anything.
Agreed.
Quote:
Peter Beckman wrote:
> > > What I am seeing is that you guys are (mostly) still alive! :)
This is
Quote:
> > > about the quietest list in the civilized world.
> >
> > Wow, this is the first thread on this list in a long time.
> >
we are quiet because we are very busy and hard working (around VoIP,
Asterisk,
Quote:
Internet, e.t.c), and maybe talking not enough.
But I think this discussion means we think documentation is VERY
important
Quote:
part of Asterisk.
There is some old rules about this:
1. Make documentation in parallel with coding.
2. Make docs even before coding.
This is because you have to know where are you going and documentation
is your
Quote:
roadmap.
Unfortunately Asterisk is still relatively young (it's just a wee
baby!!!) -- it's delving into an industry that had yet been touched by
open source, and is a pretty complex world unto itself (we're talking
over 100 years of innovation here people!).
Making documentation in parallel with coding is a great and grand idea
-- some day it may even happen. However -- those who program are not
documenteurs -- they are programmers. Digium has, at last count,
approximately 4-5 full time programmers -- the rest are all
volunteers! And it seems highly unlikely that Digium is going to ask
those _volunteer_ programmers to be required to write documentation in
addition to the programming efforts they are generously contributing
to all of us. Yes -- if someone writes a new function or application,
they have to write some documentation to show how it works, but they
certainly are not required to write a 30 page chapter on how it works.
Writing documentation before coding is an even grander idea -- but my
statements above still stand. And also, Asterisk is an open source
project and not a commercial entity (yes, there is commercialism
behind it, but Digium is not as big as Cisco), so it plays by
different rules, has different ambitions, and different goals.
The roadmap of Asterisk is constantly changing. That's because it is
driven by those volunteers who tirelessly provide knowledge and skills
into a peice of software that we all use, and the areas the get the
most attention are going to be those that they themselves require the
most for their customers.
So while your thoughts are logical and sound, they simply don't meet
the objectives of reality.
Leif Madsen.
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: [asterisk-doc] I am new to asterisk..Please help me..
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006, Hameed, Mian F wrote:
Quote:
Recently, I have not checked all what we have as documentation, but I
would like to see an effort (and I am willing to help), that will get
you this product functioning at a minimal; all in one doc. Mastering it
will come later.
For example:
Provide basics for installing LINUX. (Yes the basics!!!!!)
What? Maybe a link to a Linux website with install instructions, but I
think including that in Asterisk docs is silly. Then you'd have to
include Windows install, etc.
The aforementioned example (scope of work) can be refined, but it needs
to get done from what I have seen from the basic questions on various
forums. So I wrote to Ira if he would help.
If you and Ira want to write some of that stuff, great! Get it to me, or
IM me and I'll get you the general outline.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Beckman Internet Guy
beckman@purplecow.comhttp://www.purplecow.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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