Basically people forged credit references to get credit for telephone
service then did not pay the bills. because it is in essence credit
extended to the companies, it qualifies as criminal fraud if you make
misleading or fradulent statements, and that is how the FBI got
involved, that and there are big companies pushing them, if it was a
small provider who made the same claim they would surely push it off
saying "take it to civil court".
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
Faulkner should rot in jail.. as for the way they (the fbi) handled things,
it seems they had no choice, and i bet that credit card company was
faulkners, and he was about to rip poor people's cards off..
"
Personally after the dealings I have had with Mike Faulkner, where be
defaulted on $70k of long distance traffic with us under Union Datacom, and
then tried to open a new account three days later under Premier. When we
were doing our credit verifications and he answered the phone, he said "oh
well I guess you caught me". He has burnt more VOIP companies then anyone I
know"
Nuf said.. this guy is guilty, of defrauding companies.. what's is kids
doing with 3 xboxes anyhow ? 8 ipods ?
Let build something for that and who cares on stupid defamatory laws.. let's
host a list on a panama box and lets us all have access to it to protects
ourselves from repeat fraudsters.
PS lets just hope we don't have the same hosting as he does lol
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Trixter aka Bret McDanel
>Sent: May-16-09 8:22 PM
>To: asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com
>Subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>
>http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/data-centers-ra/
>
>Basically people forged credit references to get credit for telephone
>service then did not pay the bills. because it is in essence credit
>extended to the companies, it qualifies as criminal fraud if you make
>misleading or fradulent statements, and that is how the FBI got
>involved, that and there are big companies pushing them, if it was a
>small provider who made the same claim they would surely push it off
>saying "take it to civil court".
>
>
>--
>Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
>pgp key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8AE5C721
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>
>asterisk-biz mailing list
>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:27 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
I don't know what to tell you, but you can't close down a data center
for the purpose of collecting evidence. How hard is it to just clone
all the machines in there instead of taking them?
I have been by one such raid, they just close you down. Luckily the
place where I was happened on a Monday morning, on the Friday before
that they asked me how important it is to take the backup tapes off
site. I told them very. When I was called on Monday morning the first
thing I asked was if he had taken the tapes, when the answer was yes I
told him go home, I'm assuming they'll be done late afternoon you'll
have your network up and running tomorrow morning.
They left around 2PM, I ran to the wiz (remember them?) and bought
computers to replace the ones they took (4 in total) and he was up and
running around 11AM Tuesday.
My point, this was a small company with around 10 employees shut down
by an investigation. It turns out he was in the clear, but regardless
I don't see this justified when it can all be done with just cloning
the whole office instead of taking it away.
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM, ContactTel Business
<lists@contacttel.com> wrote:
Quote:
Faulkner should rot in jail.. as for the way they (the fbi) handled things,
it seems they had no choice, and i bet that credit card company was
faulkners, and he was about to rip poor people's cards off..
"
Personally after the dealings I have had with Mike Faulkner, where be
defaulted on $70k of long distance traffic with us under Union Datacom, and
then tried to open a new account three days later under Premier. When we
were doing our credit verifications and he answered the phone, he said "oh
well I guess you caught me". He has burnt more VOIP companies then anyone I
know"
Nuf said.. this guy is guilty, of defrauding companies.. what's is kids
doing with 3 xboxes anyhow ? 8 ipods ?
Let build something for that and who cares on stupid defamatory laws.. let's
host a list on a panama box and lets us all have access to it to protects
ourselves from repeat fraudsters.
PS lets just hope we don't have the same hosting as he does lol
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Trixter aka Bret McDanel
>>Sent: May-16-09 8:22 PM
>>To: asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com
>>Subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>>
>>http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/data-centers-ra/
>>
>>Basically people forged credit references to get credit for telephone
>>service then did not pay the bills. because it is in essence credit
>>extended to the companies, it qualifies as criminal fraud if you make
>>misleading or fradulent statements, and that is how the FBI got
>>involved, that and there are big companies pushing them, if it was a
>>small provider who made the same claim they would surely push it off
>>saying "take it to civil court".
>>
>>
>>--
>>Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
>>pgp key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8AE5C721
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>
>>asterisk-biz mailing list
>>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 00:22 -0400, C F wrote:
Quote:
I don't know what to tell you, but you can't close down a data center
for the purpose of collecting evidence. How hard is it to just clone
all the machines in there instead of taking them?
that is not the issue. The federal rules of criminal procedure require
that the "best available evidence" be used in court. This means that
copies are not allowed if the original is available. In addition, they
might be able to clone something and then discover that it doesnt work
properly based on that cloned image, why the FBI policy on seizure of
systems is to take everything (note they even took power strips per that
article). They do this to ensure that they can accurately review the
systems for evidence.
Now when they do the actual forensic analysis they work off a disk
image, that way it cant be said they modified the systems in any way,
which would invalidate their submission as evidence (potentially judges
call, but the FRCrimP do allow for excluding tampered evidence).
I think that some are missing the bigger point here. There are a lot of
companies that now have no phone service, but are willing to pay for it
(at least some of them are).
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
Not how it works...
Data could be on drives that could allow the guys to continue doing what
they were doing, which is illegal in a way.
You can't leave a loaded gun in a killers hand, and just clone it
One of the reason they took it all, is to stop the hemorrhagic situation,
then to analyse,
There are tons of killswitch systems out there
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of C F
>Sent: May-17-09 12:23 AM
>To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>
>I don't know what to tell you, but you can't close down a data center
>for the purpose of collecting evidence. How hard is it to just clone
>all the machines in there instead of taking them?
>I have been by one such raid, they just close you down. Luckily the
>place where I was happened on a Monday morning, on the Friday before
>that they asked me how important it is to take the backup tapes off
>site. I told them very. When I was called on Monday morning the first
>thing I asked was if he had taken the tapes, when the answer was yes I
>told him go home, I'm assuming they'll be done late afternoon you'll
>have your network up and running tomorrow morning.
>They left around 2PM, I ran to the wiz (remember them?) and bought
>computers to replace the ones they took (4 in total) and he was up and
>running around 11AM Tuesday.
>My point, this was a small company with around 10 employees shut down
>by an investigation. It turns out he was in the clear, but regardless
>I don't see this justified when it can all be done with just cloning
>the whole office instead of taking it away.
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM, ContactTel Business
><lists@contacttel.com> wrote:
>> Faulkner should rot in jail.. as for the way they (the fbi) handled
>things,
>> it seems they had no choice, and i bet that credit card company was
>> faulkners, and he was about to rip poor people's cards off..
>>
>> "
>> Personally after the dealings I have had with Mike Faulkner, where be
>> defaulted on $70k of long distance traffic with us under Union
>Datacom, and
>> then tried to open a new account three days later under Premier. When
>we
>> were doing our credit verifications and he answered the phone, he
>said "oh
>> well I guess you caught me". He has burnt more VOIP companies then
>anyone I
>> know"
>>
>> Nuf said.. this guy is guilty, of defrauding companies.. what's is
>kids
>> doing with 3 xboxes anyhow ? 8 ipods ?
>>
>> Let build something for that and who cares on stupid defamatory
>laws.. let's
>> host a list on a panama box and lets us all have access to it to
>protects
>> ourselves from repeat fraudsters.
>>
>> PS lets just hope we don't have the same hosting as he does lol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>>>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Trixter aka Bret McDanel
>>>>Sent: May-16-09 8:22 PM
>>>>To: asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com
>>>>Subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>>>>
>>>>http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/data-centers-ra/
>>>>
>>>>Basically people forged credit references to get credit for
>telephone
>>>>service then did not pay the bills. because it is in essence credit
>>>>extended to the companies, it qualifies as criminal fraud if you
>make
>>>>misleading or fradulent statements, and that is how the FBI got
>>>>involved, that and there are big companies pushing them, if it was a
>>>>small provider who made the same claim they would surely push it off
>>>>saying "take it to civil court".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
>>>>pgp key:
>http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8AE5C721
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>>>
>>>>asterisk-biz mailing list
>>>>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>>>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>
>> asterisk-biz mailing list
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>
>asterisk-biz mailing list
>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
It seems the biggest reason they took everything was actually because
they have no idea what the hell they're doing.
" "My understanding is that the way these things are hooked up is that
they’re interconnected to each other," he says. "Company A may be
involved in some criminal activity and because of the interconnectivity
of all these things, the information of what company A is doing may be
sitting on company B or C or D’s equipment." "
i.e. look, it's all got wires going back to this big main switch here in
the datacenter -- ergo, they're all connected and must all in some way
be involved.
Anyone with a 3rd-grader's understanding of computer networking knows
that's not how things work, but the FBI went in there, as they often do,
without any technical knowledge, and with a righteousness that would
make an evangelical proud. They made snap decisions based on a complete
lack of understanding of how computers work or datacenters are operated,
and lots of companies are now paying the price for it.
If this guy had been defrauding AT&T and Verizon out of money by using
up their minutes and not paying bills, then fine. I'm assuming AT&T and
Verizon were smart enough to cut him off at some point. And now the FBI
is involved. Would it have honestly taken a lot of extra work to hire a
data forensics team to advise them before they actually went on the
raid? Would that extra two days of planning have meant a massive
difference in the back payments?
My experience with the FBI is that their 'cyber' teams know all of jack
when it comes to cyberactivity or technology. They rely heavily on data
fed to them by other people. Hell... the cyber fraud department here in
Georgia is two people. Two. They contract out just about everything, and
absolutely rely on information given to them about any sort of
technology because they don't really know anything about it.
If they were to go off half-cocked and conduct a raid like this on their
own, it would likely end up the same way: botched beyond belief.
N.
ContactTel Business wrote:
Quote:
Not how it works...
Data could be on drives that could allow the guys to continue doing what
they were doing, which is illegal in a way.
You can't leave a loaded gun in a killers hand, and just clone it
One of the reason they took it all, is to stop the hemorrhagic situation,
then to analyse,
There are tons of killswitch systems out there
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>> bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of C F
>> Sent: May-17-09 12:23 AM
>> To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>>
>> I don't know what to tell you, but you can't close down a data center
>> for the purpose of collecting evidence. How hard is it to just clone
>> all the machines in there instead of taking them?
>> I have been by one such raid, they just close you down. Luckily the
>> place where I was happened on a Monday morning, on the Friday before
>> that they asked me how important it is to take the backup tapes off
>> site. I told them very. When I was called on Monday morning the first
>> thing I asked was if he had taken the tapes, when the answer was yes I
>> told him go home, I'm assuming they'll be done late afternoon you'll
>> have your network up and running tomorrow morning.
>> They left around 2PM, I ran to the wiz (remember them?) and bought
>> computers to replace the ones they took (4 in total) and he was up and
>> running around 11AM Tuesday.
>> My point, this was a small company with around 10 employees shut down
>> by an investigation. It turns out he was in the clear, but regardless
>> I don't see this justified when it can all be done with just cloning
>> the whole office instead of taking it away.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:14 PM, ContactTel Business
>> <lists@contacttel.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Faulkner should rot in jail.. as for the way they (the fbi) handled
>>>
>> things,
>>
>>> it seems they had no choice, and i bet that credit card company was
>>> faulkners, and he was about to rip poor people's cards off..
>>>
>>> "
>>> Personally after the dealings I have had with Mike Faulkner, where be
>>> defaulted on $70k of long distance traffic with us under Union
>>>
>> Datacom, and
>>
>>> then tried to open a new account three days later under Premier. When
>>>
>> we
>>
>>> were doing our credit verifications and he answered the phone, he
>>>
>> said "oh
>>
>>> well I guess you caught me". He has burnt more VOIP companies then
>>>
>> anyone I
>>
>>> know"
>>>
>>> Nuf said.. this guy is guilty, of defrauding companies.. what's is
>>>
>> kids
>>
>>> doing with 3 xboxes anyhow ? 8 ipods ?
>>>
>>> Let build something for that and who cares on stupid defamatory
>>>
>> laws.. let's
>>
>>> host a list on a panama box and lets us all have access to it to
>>>
>> protects
>>
>>> ourselves from repeat fraudsters.
>>>
>>> PS lets just hope we don't have the same hosting as he does lol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>>>>> bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Trixter aka Bret McDanel
>>>>> Sent: May-16-09 8:22 PM
>>>>> To: asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com
>>>>> Subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/data-centers-ra/
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically people forged credit references to get credit for
>>>>>
>> telephone
>>
>>>>> service then did not pay the bills. because it is in essence credit
>>>>> extended to the companies, it qualifies as criminal fraud if you
>>>>>
>> make
>>
>>>>> misleading or fradulent statements, and that is how the FBI got
>>>>> involved, that and there are big companies pushing them, if it was a
>>>>> small provider who made the same claim they would surely push it off
>>>>> saying "take it to civil court".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
>>>>> pgp key:
>>>>>
>> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8AE5C721
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>>>>
>>>>> asterisk-biz mailing list
>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>>>>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>>
>>> asterisk-biz mailing list
>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
>>
>> asterisk-biz mailing list
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>> http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
>>
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 17:02 -0400, SIP wrote:
Quote:
If this guy had been defrauding AT&T and Verizon out of money by using
up their minutes and not paying bills, then fine.
I disagree with the "then fine" part. Its a civil matter not a criminal
matter if that was all he was doing. Failure to pay your bills should
not land you in jail (or the potential for that) in this country unless
you do it through fraud (which is what is alleged in this instance).
The allegations go beyond just using minutes and not paying bills.
They are alleged to have committed fraud (18 USC 1342 or so, mail, wire,
etc are all right next to each other and I forget which is which) by
forging documents which were used to grant the line of credit (ie
instead of prepay or some other mechanism). The same types of things
apply if you lie on a credit card application, mortgage application (why
the Clintons had issues during the "white water" stuff, they checked the
box saying they would live there for the first year to get a lower
interest rate).
Now there is the whole 10th amendment argument of whether or not the
federal government even has the right to do this ("regulate" as per
article I section 8 Clause 3 initially meant "to make regular" not to
tax, legislate, or anything else) but that is a totally separate
discussion :)
Quote:
I'm assuming AT&T and
Verizon were smart enough to cut him off at some point. And now the FBI
is involved. Would it have honestly taken a lot of extra work to hire a
data forensics team to advise them before they actually went on the
raid? Would that extra two days of planning have meant a massive
difference in the back payments?
The FBI has a team based out of Quantico, which is the group that wrote
the "take everything" policy. This includes criminal and innocent
systems. They need to be able to replicate the environment exactly for
trial, and until you figure out what is and what is not part of it its
safer from a prosecution perspective to take everything.
The fact that the agents in charge went on vacation just after and made
it really difficult for the innocent customers to get at least copies of
their data let alone their hardware back is a bit over the top, they
should have left someone in charge that could have dealt with that.
They usually do not respond well to claims that stuff needs to be
returned, and the problem is that if it never goes to trial they can
keep the systems forever. Now generic fraud like 18 USC 1342 has a 5
year statute of limitations, so they can keep it for 5 years unless they
can get some additional crime tossed in there, such as financing by a
FDIC insured entity (perhaps some of the systems were leased with
similarly fradulent documents), which would mean its a crime against the
government and thus a 10 year statute of limitations. After the statute
has expired they cant justify keeping the systems, but to keep systems
for 5 years basically makes them all but useless in the enterprise
anyway.
Software being developed, graphics for webpages, etc all qualify as a
"artist work in progress" which per first amendment rulings by SCOTUS
they have to return immediately upon being notified, yet they regularly
do not do this.
Note that they do not need to charge anyone, only have an investigation
into a crime that has a statute of limitations of X to seize and keep
the equipment for that duration. At the end of the day, yes they can
make an affidavit to a judge to get a warrant even if the affidavit
contains inaccurate, incomplete, or incorrect information, seize
equipment and only return it after its no longer valuable.
They can even rely on conflicting statements made by some informant, for
example the informant can be obviously just telling stories until they
get the one they like (it happens more than you think in the federal
system) and based on those statements they can get a warrant. They have
"qualified immunity" in doing this, meaning that you have to show that
they knew they lied in the affidavit to sue them, and once the judge
signs the warrant they have "absolute immunity" which means that from
that point on you cant sue (unless you can pierce the "qualified
immunity" layer first).
Judges have ruled that as long as the FBI agents are doing what any
other FBI agent would think is reasonable they have immunity.
So um yeah.. The flipside is that there are customers out there that
want phone service and currently do not have any, and it may entail some
consulting work to get them back where they were before all of this.
So if anyone is wanting to get a few extra customers they should look at
this as an opportunity and try to contact those companies (which may be
hard given phone/email systems are now offline :) and offer services to
them.
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
Quote:
So um yeah.. The flipside is that there are customers out there that
want phone service and currently do not have any, and it may entail some
consulting work to get them back where they were before all of this.
So if anyone is wanting to get a few extra customers they should look at
this as an opportunity and try to contact those companies (which may be
hard given phone/email systems are now offline :) and offer services to
them.
Which begs the questions a) will they ever trust their service to
someone small / a VoIP provider again, and b) does offering service to
the people who've had their computers seized suddenly open you up to
having your computers seized because the FBI will decide you're in some
way connected to people that are connected to people who are connected
to people who are people of interest?
N.
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
Amen
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Trixter aka Bret McDanel
>Sent: May-17-09 8:14 PM
>To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>
>On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 17:02 -0400, SIP wrote:
>> If this guy had been defrauding AT&T and Verizon out of money by
>using
>> up their minutes and not paying bills, then fine.
>
>I disagree with the "then fine" part. Its a civil matter not a
>criminal
>matter if that was all he was doing. Failure to pay your bills should
>not land you in jail (or the potential for that) in this country unless
>you do it through fraud (which is what is alleged in this instance).
>The allegations go beyond just using minutes and not paying bills.
>
>They are alleged to have committed fraud (18 USC 1342 or so, mail,
>wire,
>etc are all right next to each other and I forget which is which) by
>forging documents which were used to grant the line of credit (ie
>instead of prepay or some other mechanism). The same types of things
>apply if you lie on a credit card application, mortgage application
>(why
>the Clintons had issues during the "white water" stuff, they checked
>the
>box saying they would live there for the first year to get a lower
>interest rate).
>
>Now there is the whole 10th amendment argument of whether or not the
>federal government even has the right to do this ("regulate" as per
>article I section 8 Clause 3 initially meant "to make regular" not to
>tax, legislate, or anything else) but that is a totally separate
>discussion :)
>
>
>> I'm assuming AT&T and
>> Verizon were smart enough to cut him off at some point. And now the
>FBI
>> is involved. Would it have honestly taken a lot of extra work to hire
>a
>> data forensics team to advise them before they actually went on the
>> raid? Would that extra two days of planning have meant a massive
>> difference in the back payments?
>>
>The FBI has a team based out of Quantico, which is the group that wrote
>the "take everything" policy. This includes criminal and innocent
>systems. They need to be able to replicate the environment exactly for
>trial, and until you figure out what is and what is not part of it its
>safer from a prosecution perspective to take everything.
>
>The fact that the agents in charge went on vacation just after and made
>it really difficult for the innocent customers to get at least copies
>of
>their data let alone their hardware back is a bit over the top, they
>should have left someone in charge that could have dealt with that.
>
>They usually do not respond well to claims that stuff needs to be
>returned, and the problem is that if it never goes to trial they can
>keep the systems forever. Now generic fraud like 18 USC 1342 has a 5
>year statute of limitations, so they can keep it for 5 years unless
>they
>can get some additional crime tossed in there, such as financing by a
>FDIC insured entity (perhaps some of the systems were leased with
>similarly fradulent documents), which would mean its a crime against
>the
>government and thus a 10 year statute of limitations. After the
>statute
>has expired they cant justify keeping the systems, but to keep systems
>for 5 years basically makes them all but useless in the enterprise
>anyway.
>
>Software being developed, graphics for webpages, etc all qualify as a
>"artist work in progress" which per first amendment rulings by SCOTUS
>they have to return immediately upon being notified, yet they regularly
>do not do this.
>
>Note that they do not need to charge anyone, only have an investigation
>into a crime that has a statute of limitations of X to seize and keep
>the equipment for that duration. At the end of the day, yes they can
>make an affidavit to a judge to get a warrant even if the affidavit
>contains inaccurate, incomplete, or incorrect information, seize
>equipment and only return it after its no longer valuable.
>
>They can even rely on conflicting statements made by some informant,
>for
>example the informant can be obviously just telling stories until they
>get the one they like (it happens more than you think in the federal
>system) and based on those statements they can get a warrant. They
>have
>"qualified immunity" in doing this, meaning that you have to show that
>they knew they lied in the affidavit to sue them, and once the judge
>signs the warrant they have "absolute immunity" which means that from
>that point on you cant sue (unless you can pierce the "qualified
>immunity" layer first).
>
>Judges have ruled that as long as the FBI agents are doing what any
>other FBI agent would think is reasonable they have immunity.
>
>
>So um yeah.. The flipside is that there are customers out there that
>want phone service and currently do not have any, and it may entail
>some
>consulting work to get them back where they were before all of this.
>So if anyone is wanting to get a few extra customers they should look
>at
>this as an opportunity and try to contact those companies (which may be
>hard given phone/email systems are now offline :) and offer services
>to
>them.
>
>
>
>--
>Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
>pgp key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8AE5C721
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
No
And yes
I can't explain at the moment but can confirm LAE do whatever they want.. if
that means sending you to gitmo for being a different color then that is
also true. We live in a fear driven society, gov'ed by money.
This guy wasn't a friend of a friend, he had a network of computers
dedicated to defrauding people and companies, the fact they took it all is
not the point, the problem is when these legit clients will want their stuff
back they will never be able to.
1 single call from 1 of his clients to destination 01193 can land this guy
in gitmo.
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of SIP
>Sent: May-17-09 8:28 PM
>To: trixter@0xdecafbad.com; Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk
>Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>
>Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
>>
>> So um yeah.. The flipside is that there are customers out there that
>> want phone service and currently do not have any, and it may entail
>some
>> consulting work to get them back where they were before all of this.
>> So if anyone is wanting to get a few extra customers they should look
>at
>> this as an opportunity and try to contact those companies (which may
>be
>> hard given phone/email systems are now offline :) and offer services
>to
>> them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Which begs the questions a) will they ever trust their service to
>someone small / a VoIP provider again, and b) does offering service to
>the people who've had their computers seized suddenly open you up to
>having your computers seized because the FBI will decide you're in some
>way connected to people that are connected to people who are connected
>to people who are people of interest?
>
>
>N.
>
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 1:52 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
That analogy is false. A loaded gun can be used to kill people
if the criminal still has it - and there is no other way to
stop the killing other than to take it away.
In this case Verizon/AT&T could EASILY shut down their access
without confiscating any equipment whatsoever.
As a business owner it worries me greatly that my equipment
could be confiscated for essentially forever just because
some idiot in the next cage decided it's a good idea to
defraud AT&T.
I mention forever because in essence servers these days get
replaced every few years anyway. If they kept the equipment
for 2-3 years they've essentially kept it beyond the useful
life of the machine.
-- Nitzan
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, ContactTel Business <lists@contacttel.com> wrote:
Quote:
From: ContactTel Business <lists@contacttel.com>
Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
To: "'Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion'" <asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com>
Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 12:52 PM
Not how it works...
Data could be on drives that could allow the guys to
continue doing what
they were doing, which is illegal in a way.
You can't leave a loaded gun in a killers hand, and just
clone it
One of the reason they took it all, is to stop the
hemorrhagic situation,
then to analyse,
There are tons of killswitch systems out there
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:53 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
Yeah still meant to say that its irrelevant to Verizon etc,
The FBI had to take it all
As far as WHY it all started it smells funny.. Verizon etc WOULD OF cut them
on first late payment,
And we all know they would need @ least 1 week worth of traffic in advance..
Call L3, and say you want to send them 30 million minutes.. ask for how much
is the deposit..
Never saw a credit line for this.. unless you're a big boy,
oracle/ibm/Microsoft.
I doubt you would have one for that volume.
So something is not right from the beginning, cascading into a cluste..k
that will never end,
Quote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asterisk-biz-bounces@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-biz-
>bounces@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Nitzan Kon
>Sent: May-17-09 10:49 PM
>To: Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion
>Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>
>
>That analogy is false. A loaded gun can be used to kill people
>if the criminal still has it - and there is no other way to
>stop the killing other than to take it away.
>
>In this case Verizon/AT&T could EASILY shut down their access
>without confiscating any equipment whatsoever.
>
>As a business owner it worries me greatly that my equipment
>could be confiscated for essentially forever just because
>some idiot in the next cage decided it's a good idea to
>defraud AT&T.
>
>I mention forever because in essence servers these days get
>replaced every few years anyway. If they kept the equipment
>for 2-3 years they've essentially kept it beyond the useful
>life of the machine.
>
> -- Nitzan
>
>--- On Sun, 5/17/09, ContactTel Business <lists@contacttel.com> wrote:
>
>> From: ContactTel Business <lists@contacttel.com>
>> Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
>> To: "'Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion'"
><asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com>
>> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 12:52 PM
>> Not how it works...
>>
>> Data could be on drives that could allow the guys to
>> continue doing what
>> they were doing, which is illegal in a way.
>>
>> You can't leave a loaded gun in a killers hand, and just
>> clone it
>>
>> One of the reason they took it all, is to stop the
>> hemorrhagic situation,
>> then to analyse,
>>
>> There are tons of killswitch systems out there
>
>_______________________________________________
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>To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 23:49 -0400, ContactTel Business wrote:
Quote:
Never saw a credit line for this.. unless you're a big boy,
oracle/ibm/Microsoft.
I doubt you would have one for that volume.
without a line of credit the whole thing would have had problems. First
why would they need to forge documents from Verizon (trademark
infringement is essentially what I read is verizons claim) saying they
paid on time, and second it should never have been a crime for simple
failure to pay (that should be civil court only).
So apparently there are lines of credit for phone service, basically
post pay. Many large customers do not prepay or pay a deposit, although
often the credit portion is based on a DUNS lookup as opposed to self
provided uncorroborated documentation, but hey.
And if you followed what Broadvoice did years ago, if you dispute
charges you have typically 1 year and they cant hold it against you
during that year. Broadvoice challenged charges for non-geographic
numbers by GBLX. At the end of 12 months of arbitration, GBLX just shut
off broadvoice, which left them scrambling to try to find routes to stay
in business. So even if you have 1 late payment there are ways to make
it continue past the first month, usually the dispute stuff is part of
the filed tariff, as such they cant refuse.
Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] on the topic of fraud
On Sun, 17 May 2009, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
Quote:
The FBI has a team based out of Quantico, which is the group that wrote
the "take everything" policy. This includes criminal and innocent
systems. They need to be able to replicate the environment exactly for
trial, and until you figure out what is and what is not part of it its
safer from a prosecution perspective to take everything.
They should have taken the whole Internet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Beckman Internet Guy
beckman@angryox.comhttp://www.angryox.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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